Thanks Sybil. You're totally on the ball about the support/enabling thing and I do think about it. We have a pretty open relationship and we touch base about the harming thing in a non-confronting way. She used the red gel pens I supplied last week as an alternative and complained they are too fine and hurt her body! a little irony there for me to smile at. She is also active at the moment with Dance, dance Revolution. All day long she is thumping away on the dance mat. I have told her she doesn't need to hide harming from me but I realise she may want to foster this dark side. Idk, since she moved back home, she seems happier. I am not prepared to slip into a comfort zone and we have a counselling service which comes out to our home and she is involved with a mental health service too. I figure I need to keep some things out on the table as a rule, including her harming so she knows we are all prepared to deal with it. I appreciate your comments and email link. It's good to know other people have an insight to offer me. It really does help me understand my daughter better when I read other peoples experiences and wisdom.